Category talk:Masterminds
some disputed masterminds Peter Kingsley was certainly not the mastermind of season 2 (that was Max), and neither were Henderson nor Logan the masterminds of Season 5. I suppose Logan can have this category because of Season 8. 06:26, October 1, 2011 (UTC) : Let's work together on this, to make this category as accurate as possible. I have added a line to describe what exactly the term "mastermind" should mean, a strict definition that is useful and we can all hopefully agree upon. :# For Season 1, it was Andre and Victor. :# Season 2 is more complicated but I believe there is certainty: Max was the mastermind. Kingsley was explicitly Max's project manager and was definitely not the mastermind. Syed Ali was the mastermind of nothing in my opinion since he was the pawn in 2 different conspiracies, but in his case I'm especially willing to hear arguments against this. :# Saunders is easily the mastermind of Season 3 :# And Marwan was Season 4's. :# Logically, Season 5 has to go to Graem (not Logan, Henderson, Cummings, Nathanson, etc), but since Bierko was completely out of everyone's control half the time, I think it's acceptable Bierko can be considered a mastermind as well. :# Season 6 is an unmitigated nightmare, but Fayed, Gredenko & Markov, and Cheng are the masterminds of their respective conspiracies. I'm really on the fence about Phillip Bauer. :# Season 7, I suppose it's acceptable for Juma, Hodges, and Wilson to get this distinction. :# Season 8, Suvarov for sure, I suppose Mehran too, and Logan for sullying everything up on the American side. 08:07, October 1, 2011 (UTC) I agree with: *Victor and Andre in season 1 *In season 2 Max, *in season 3 Saunders *In season 4 Marwan *In season 5 both Graem and Bierko (with your reasons) *With season 6: Fayed, Gredenko, Markov and Cheng *Season 7: Agree with the names above *Season 8: Logan and Yuri --Station7 09:11, October 1, 2011 (UTC) :This is so complicated I will defer to whatever you guys decide. I'm seeing a bit of arbitrariness (abu fayed is, yet syed ali isn't) but won't get too involved.--Acer4666 17:01, October 1, 2011 (UTC) :: About Ali, you're right Acer. Even though he was being manipulated by a pair of outside conspiracies, he was the mastermind of his own group and did not know he was a pawn. The reason I was defending Fayed having the category is because he overcame for a few hours the people (Russians) who were trying to manipulate him in his case. Ali never did, but, it should exclude him from the category. :: If Ali is eligible, wouldn't Stanton be the mastermind of the first conspiracy that was uncovered to be manipulating Second Wave? There were three separate conspiracies that season overall, and we have already established Ali and Max as the other 2 masterminds. 00:39, October 2, 2011 (UTC) Overall, I'm not that crazy about the category, mostly because it lends itself to a lot of subjectivity. Plus, I really don't see much of a benefit for having it in the end. The only ones I see clearcut are seasons 1, 3 and 4. Thief12 02:35, October 2, 2011 (UTC) : Trust me Thief, I do still share the same general sentiments: I can prove it, look at the bottom of , that was me, precluding some earlier attempts from happening again. However this time around Illyriarocks has used a term which actually does seem to fit the concept. Overall, do you agree that the definition I laid out in the category description helps reduce subjectivity? Now that a useful term has come up we can strictly define it. 10:17, October 2, 2011 (UTC) ::The definition is fine, and I agree it might reduce subjectivity. But there are seasons that aren't as clearcut as others, which might make it more difficult in some cases. One of my issues was precisely the Syed Ali one that you and Acer brought up. But, for example, wasn't Max working parallel with Alexander Trepkos? or was he the sole leader/organizer of the whole conspiracy? And if we are including Fayed and Ali because they were indeed masterminds of their own plans, wouldn't some of the antagonists of Day 5 lend themselves to the same definition? Beresch, Nathanson, Henderson, maybe even Logan? I'm stretching it, but you probably catch my drift. I won't even go into Day 6, because I haven't seen it in a long time and don't remember all the ramifications. As for Day 7, will we include O'Niel and the other cabal members? why single out Wilson? Thief12 14:50, October 2, 2011 (UTC) ::: Regarding Trepkos: there are 2, possibly 3, very strong reasons from the show which support the idea that Max was the mastermind, and Trepkos and the unnamed third guy—though they outranked Kinglsey—were Max's minions. The first time we see him, he reports to Kingsley that "Max is unhappy". He doesn't say "I'm unhappy" since he's acting as Max's representative. The 2nd point is that Trepkos had no idea about the plan to have Mandy attack Palmer, so he wasn't the mastermind of that either. (The third, more arguable point is Wayne's line to David that "the man" behind the attempt on David's life was arrested. This person is quite obviously Max but there are some fans here who think The Game is canonical and that Max was killed by Jack before Day 3.) ::: Fayed and Ali were the topmost conspirators in their plots. Beresch, Nathanson, Henderson, and Logan never had this distinction; they were all answering to superiors during Day 5. (In Day 8 however Logan was masterminding his own conspiracy.) ::: O'Niel nor any of the other Prion conspirators (except Wilson) were not masterminding anything during Day 7. The final say went to Wilson. Additionally, Wilson was listed as #1 in the cabal numbering system and Cara Bowden was his intermediary to at least one of the cabalists, Hodges. Logic dictates that if Bowden was the intermediary to all of the other cabalists, the anonymous software interface they used was to keep each cabalist anonymous from each other except Wilson. ... Now, I agree it is true that O'Niel, Marr, and the others helped mastermind the original prion plot, the one Hodges spilled the beans about. But since one can't mastermind a thing that never happened, they wouldn't get the label. They were essentially just financiers of the pathogen who rubber-stamped the new conspiracy as Wilson and his minion Bowden laid it out to them. 20:32, October 2, 2011 (UTC) :::: Ok, but how will we label Graem as the "mastermind" of Day 5 when it is later revealed that Wilson was? Even in Day 6, I think, it is implied that it was Phillip the one that ordered the hits on Palmer, etc. along with the rest of the conspirators (Wilson, Logan, etc.) and that Graem confessed only to cover his father. Thief12 00:22, October 3, 2011 (UTC) ::: Thief I had the same confusions in the past, but after re-examining the dialogue like a huge nerd, I was satisfied that the confusion was cleared up. I hope this explanation helps: during Season 5, the person behind Charles Logan was always Graem Bauer. Neither Phillip nor Wilson were ever present or heard or seen or even implied, and it's important not to lose sight of that fact. ::: First let's look at Phillip. The only thing we know is his phrase "my role in David Palmer's assassination". Unless I'm horribly mistaken, we never ever learn what that "role" was. It could merely have been complicity, or financial support! That's when I realized that, to claim Phillip's role was superior to Graem's or even important at all, is speculation. We have no facts about Phillip's Sentox role. Therefore we can never claim he masterminded anything, especially when Graem himself was doing all the directing of Logan, and it was Graem's own confession which incriminated him finally. ::: Next, Wilson. All we have to work with is Tony's assertion that he was involved in Michelle's death, and Tony's quote that was something like, to paraphrase: was the man behind Charles Logan. Again, there are no details, and Wilson is a nonentity during Day 5 so we can't retroactively determine anything. To say he was the mastermind of Sentox is, similar to Phillip, speculation... he could have similarly been a financier or something less significant. Also, we can neither prove nor disprove that Alan Wilson is "behind Charles Logan" in the sense that, as Chairman of McLennen-Forster, he secretly assisted Marwan in taking out John Keeler with the intention of getting Logan installed... which he was hired to do by Graem, which is strictly a Day 4 conspiracy. It's all speculation with Wilson, too. 05:19, October 3, 2011 (UTC) : I think you should get over whatever feelings you have about The Game, because you said that as if the majority agree it's not canon. No disrespect or anything, but it's not what you think, it's what's fact. The fact of the matter is, you nor I know anything about the full extent of that Day 2/The Game relation, so I suggest you forget about it and stop trying to act like it didn't happen. And like I say, not trying to be rude here, but I can't stand people who act like things didn't happen and complain about it. --ASHPD24 21:49, October 2, 2011 (UTC) :: Haha once again your sudden hostility is so misplaced and comes from far left field. I clearly said it's an arguable detail, the least significant of three individual details, and I even put it in parentheses. The argument doesn't hinge on that point in any way. Imagine I never mentioned the Game and its tenuous connection to the TV series in my prior post, and my point about Max being mastermind changes not one iota. :: (Since you're persisting on this, you should know that you're 100% dead wrong about my understanding of the Game. So stop saying you understand it. I never claimed "The Game didn't happen". My claim is that it happened in its own continuity, a separate one from the television series. Again, however, this is not important to the discussion at hand.) 22:25, October 2, 2011 (UTC) : What you're saying is like saying you think a work is terrible but you dn't hate it. It's called an oxymoron. Saying The Game isn't in the same continuity of the show but in one of its own is not only wrong but contradictory. You haven't even played the game, you only know what you read about, and you don't think the Game is canon based on vague speculation. I know it's canon based on evidence I can back up, not "I think" opinions. --ASHPD24 23:19, October 2, 2011 (UTC) :: ASHPD24 because Game topic is not related to mastermind discussion, I pasted it on Talk:24: The Game and replied there. 05:19, October 3, 2011 (UTC) Jack stated that Kingsley helped smuggle in the nuke, but Ali stated that the bomb was a "Second Wave operation only". Based on his conversation with Max in 2x23, as well as dialogue between Alex Hewitt, Jack and Sherry, it could be safely assumed that Kingsley was one of the "co-masterminds" behind the day's events. User:Illyriarocks 4:49, Oct 6, 2011 (UTC) : Kingsley certainly was one of the conspirators, involved in the early stages of the plot, but he answered to Max and we do already know that Max hired him after the plot was conceived. 17:48, October 12, 2011 (UTC) New ones? Wald, Stanton... I've been browsing through those Antagonist pages (Day 8 antagonists, etc) and going straight to the top of each grouping to see if this category needs any additions and subtractions. Ones we do not need to add: # Ira Gaines isn't eligible because he was always clearly working for the Drazens. Obvious, but worth spelling out. # Ramon Salazar and Hector aren't eligible in my opinion as "masterminds" because they didn't plot anything except a jailbreak and an illegal auction. All their evil ideas were actually planted there by Jack anyway for the sting. # Conlon/Reiss/McLennen tried to rush a criminal coverup, but it wasn't a terrorist conspiracy, and fairly certain you'll agree it would be dumb to label these bumbling assholes as "masterminds". # Phillip Bauer's role in season 5 is completely unspecified, and in season 6 he was hired by Cheng. Poppa Bauer was a fairly independent antagonist, but I'm not seeing any of his actions worthy of a "mastermind" label. # Allison Taylor became Charles Logan's puppet during Season 8. All the evil crap she rubber-stamped were his ideas... he was masterminding the American corruption at the end of the season. # Vladimir Laitanan: smalltime scum-bag, didn't mastermind anything in the plots. Couldn't even mastermind himself away from an angry woman with a butter knife. # Sergei Bazhaev might seem like a good choice for this category, but he was very explicitly working for Dana Walsh (herself an intermediary). He always knew Red Square was muscle for shadowy Moscow people. I consider Bazhaev to be in a position analogous to Ira Gaines. Ones I think we do need to add: # Joseph Wald since he was certainly the leader of the homegrown terrorist cell. Yes, he was being manipulated, but he did not know it, and within the structure of that specific terrorist plot, he answered to no one but himself. # Roger Stanton, he masterminded the whole "let's give Palmer's administration some balls" plot. That was a very big treasonous conspiracy in itself, even though Max/Trepkos/Kingsley were using Stanton's group. # Anatoly Markov was pretty clearly Gredenko's co-conspirator—neither his subordinate nor his superior. They were mastermind partners, just like Andre and Victor Drazen. # Samir Mehran. Mastermind of the second Kamistan conspiracy. To me Mehran is the most obvious missing one so far. (See also Farhad in the list below) Ones I'm not 100% about: # Bruce Carson: do we have enough facts to state that he was a mastermind, considering there was all those unspecified "others" sponsoring him and Pollock? # Farhad Hassan: well, the first Kamistan conspiracy was confusing when you try and pin down masterminds. Wasim, Amiri, and a bunch of other people helped start the plot, too, so I'm doubtful about this one. # David Brucker: I think he does belong, since he converted Rob Weiss to the Dark Side and directed the whole "kidnap Hassan" conspiracy. Any opinions on him? 07:22, November 4, 2011 (UTC) : Hi, glad you asked. I disagree with #1, because it was obviously Pollock's game, Carson was just there for muscle. : #2 is hard to pin down, because Farhad was obviously a co-conspirator of Wasim, Amiri, and the other IRK officials, so I think we should add him and them as well. : #3, definitiely include. Brucker was clearly the one who thought of the idea, and those mercs were his men. : Cheers. --ASHPD24 14:08, November 4, 2011 (UTC) I agree with the onces that we don't need to add, because you are right about everything. Brucker should be added. He mastermind that plan, which killed Omar Hassan later in the process. I'm not sure if Bruce Carson should be added. I think he and Reed more discussed what to do about the situation in to killing Wayne Palmer. However, when Tom Lennox tried to escape by killing him and himself by gas, Pollock said that they should be fast, while Carson was angry, right? So I call it a maybe. --Station7 14:56, November 4, 2011 (UTC) :I think I disagree with the Joseph Wald one - just by comparing to Ira Gaines. As Jack said to Wald, "they didn't just tell you where to hit, they told you when". Wald was told when and where to hit, just as Gaines was told who to kill and how to do it. I'm sure if Wald's plan had failed, there would've been an angry Mamud Rasheed Faheen on the phone saying how disappointed he was, just as there was Andre Drazen speaking to Gaines. I don't see the distinction--Acer4666 (talk) 17:19, November 4, 2011 (UTC) :The difference is this. Gaines was very explicitly working for the Drazens. Wald was the head of his own crew, not working for anyone. He was only just told by Second Wave where to hit because they shared common interests, just like Ali didn't work for Kingsley, but was supplied the nuke by the consortium. Gaines was in it for purely the money involved, and thus was employed. Wald was doing it because it's what he believed in, not because he worked for Second Wave. Gaines was not the head of that group of terrorists, just a cell of them, much like the many subcell leaders during Day 4. Wald was the head of his own cell rather than just a small part of a large group. That's why I think Wald should be included, where Gaines shouldn't be. --ASHPD24 18:10, November 4, 2011 (UTC) ::Aha, after this explanation and a re-watching of the episode I understand now. But...surely Hector Salazar should be included then? "All their evil ideas were actually planted there by Jack anyway for the sting.", is identical to the way Wald's ideas were planted by Faheen. And Hector Salazar blackmailed the US government by threatening to release a deadly virus, as well as "blowing up a government building" (identical to what Wald did) - if that's not terrorism I dunno what is. ::Can you also talk me through Stanton? I believe he was on the same rung of his conspiracy as Sherry Palmer, was he not? They were both working to the same goal, yet Sherry was explicitly working for other people. I wouldn't say Stanton answered to nobody--Acer4666 (talk) 19:00, November 4, 2011 (UTC) : I agree with the Salazar duumvirate being masterminds, as they were the heads of their group, even if they were just pawns in Amador's game. : This is how the Stanton/Sherry conspiracy is. : Stanton was working with Colonel Ron Samuels and Senator Bruce Gluck to make sure the nuke entered the airport so the Coral Snake team led by Wallace could disarm it and stir up support for the Middle Eastern war. Sherry was working in tandem with Stanton as well, though I'm fairly certain that Stanton could be penned as the mastermind of that particular conspiracy. Or perhaps it was a tetravirate with leadership shared between Stanton, Sherry, Samuels, and Gluck? I'm not quite sure of the leadership here, but Stanton would probably be the best bet. --ASHPD24 19:12, November 4, 2011 (UTC) :: This reply is to a few of them, so bear with me. :: First, one's we all agree on at this point: Brucker; Wald; Hector & Ramon. Thanks ASHPD24 for the thorough description about Wald, you made me much more confident about that one. :: Second, regarding Pollock and Carson, ASHPD24 if you check out the dialogue, you may be able to tell you made an honest mistake about Pollock being in charge. Yes, Pollock did most of the talking (and was the more developed character of the pair), but Pollock was indeed "Carson's guy" in the White House. Here are a few of the quotes demonstrating what I mean: ::# Carson: Our plan is contingent on your proximity to the president. We need you in place. (Day 6: 1:00pm-2:00pm) ::# Pollock: ... I never said that I was the architect of this. I'm just a conduit. (Day 6: 2:00pm-3:00pm) :: So if we add one of them, it might have to be just Carson since the others are unknown. :: Third is Stanton: I'm with ASHPD24's first explanation about that group. We do know Gluck communicated with Stanton, and we do know that Samuels was directing Coral Snake, but we can't confirm whether they were equals with Stanton or not. They were very important, but simply based on the uncertainty, I think we'd be making assumptions to add them to this category, yea? Stanton himself however, all signs are pointing to him. (And Sherry Palmer is such a confusing disaster of conflicting lies that it's unwarranted to assert that she masterminded any of the terrorism.) :: Acer and Station, do you have any opinions about Farhad yes/no, and if yes, should he be alone or also with Amiri and Wasim? I think Farhad should be alone (especially considering that scene where he is shouting into the phone that this was "his operation"), and ASHPD24 thinks he should be together with Amiri and Wasim. :: Also does anybody reject Samir Mehran & Markov? 00:54, November 10, 2011 (UTC) : I think Mehran could be added on the basis that he was the head of the IRK terrorist group, even if he was just being used in the end. Though interestingly, he originally answered to Farhad before taking over. Markov was indeed a co-conspirator of Gredenko's, and both were equals. Though Gredenko was the more dangerous of the two, it was clear that neither answered to the other. --ASHPD24 01:17, November 10, 2011 (UTC) :: Having watched Season 8 I disagree that Brucker is a terrorist mastermind. What he did was to actively avoid terrorism, he was picking the worst of two evils. And if you claim that he was aiding Mehran's terrorist agenda to execute Hassan, well then Brucker was "working for" Mehran as a subordinate, giving in to his demands in return for no American lives. His agenda was not to execute Hassan, it was to save American lives, so he was clearly answering to Mehran and was not at the top of that conspiracy--Acer4666 (talk) 16:13, January 5, 2014 (UTC) McLennen-Forster, Mohmar Habib, Walt Cummings and Amador Those idiots at the weapons company tried to kill both Jack and Paul, as well a set off a EMP, the Middle Eastern General was Fayed's superior, Charles's Chief of Staff masterminded the conspiracy to kill Jack so the chinese couldn't interrogate him and the weapons dealer duped the drug dealers and Nina. I suppose we could have Kevin since he masterminded the scheme to blackmail Dana. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) . : The "Mastermind" label as we have defined it pertains to abetting terrorism, not simply criminal behavior, so since the McLennen-Forster guys had no terrorist goal, I am having doubts they belong as Masterminds. But I do agree that Mohmar Habib sounds good, since he was Fayed's sponsor, so I added him. For Walt, see Talk:Walt_Cummings, I already replied there. : Amador is already on the list. Finally, Kevin is a criminal for sure (a blackmailing loser), but no more a mastermind than Gary Matheson, Frank Allard, or Marcus (Day 2). 13:22, August 2, 2012 (UTC) I was joking about Kevin. Alexis Drazen Why isn't Alexis Drazen listed as mastermind? Didn't he had the saem function as his brother. If it isn't so, I will thought that he, Andre and Victor were the masterminds. --Station7 (talk) 21:02, August 22, 2012 (UTC) : I never really perceived Alexis to have anywhere near the leadership role that Andre did. He probably knew all the operations that were going on, but it doesn't look like he was the architect of much else besides his mole operation and paying off Alan Morgan. Killing the leftover Gaines people doesn't count for much either in my book. I am still convinced that Victor and Andre did all the real masterminding. 03:12, August 23, 2012 (UTC) :: I think originally the writers planned to have Alexis more of a mastermind than Andre, before realising andre was a better character so they killed alexis off. :: In 9am-10am, when speaking to Gaines on the phone, Andre says "my brother is not happy", in a similar way to how Alexander Trepkos tells Peter Kingsley that Max is not happy. :: And in the café scene in 2pm-3pm, Andre is apologetic to Alexis for using Gaines, and Alexis assures Andre that Palmer will be dead by midnight. Andre even asks him "have you heard from Jovan or Mishko?", suggesting Alexis was in charge of that part of the operation too. It's tempting to dismiss Alexis as a mastermind because he's incapacitated so early, but I don't see how he is any less of a one than Andre. Then again I'm still not sure I fully get this category...--Acer4666 (talk) 10:31, August 23, 2012 (UTC) : While Alexis did seem to have the manager role in the Morgan plot and the lead role as the mole in the infiltration plot, he doesn't seem to be pulling the strings like Andre. Again, while he almost certainly was in the loop for the whole conspiracy, he functioned as a high-value field asset when compared to his brother in my opinion. I do understand the danger of dismissing him as a mastermind on account of his being incapacitated, but I'm positive this isn't a factor in my evaluation. : To address your two points: When Andre says "my brother is not happy", I do see your point clearly when you interpret that it seems to mean "my brother is my boss", however later developments make me think Andre is much more likely to be saying "my brother's neck is on the line as a mole and your failures are endangering his cover". Perhaps the original intent of the line was to paint the unseen brother as a superior, but when we meet him and compare him to Andre, I don't quite buy it. (Maybe it's like the original intent of Samir Mehran's line about the shadowy "businessman"... a specific foreshadowing was there but it was effectively overruled by later episodes). The cafe scene is a good point too, but is it possible that Andre was simply apologizing for choosing him? 00:40, April 25, 2013 (UTC) :: Your argument seems quite subjective - you're basing it on "meeting him and comparing him to Andre", or Alexis not "seeming to be pulling the strings like Andre". The reason Alexis didn't seem to be pulling the strings as much because he never got the chance to, he was killed before we saw much of what he was doing. Andre was just as much of a "field asset", as he was right there in military gear invading the prison. It looked like Alexis was responsible for killing Palmer ("I give you my word, he will be dead by midnight...") and Andre responsible for rescuing Victor. You can't reasonably claim either one of them was beholden to, or working for, the other one--Acer4666 (talk) 16:10, January 5, 2014 (UTC) : (I only stumbled onto your reply here; Acer if there are other issues like this you'd like me to reply to, which I missed in prior months, please just point em out on my Talk page.) : Back on topic: I do agree with your belief that "originally the writers planned to have Alexis more of a mastermind than Andre", but you sort of prove my point with the rest of that sentence, "before realising andre was a better character so they killed alexis off". : It looks like we're both arguing about three things: awareness, responsibility, and decision-making. Regarding awareness, sure, Alexis was aware of the whole plot, but so was Osterlind before he got killed off, and an even better example is Ron (Day 5). My point is, awareness isn't a determining factor. We both agree Alexis knew about everything all along. : Now responsibility. I'm looking at it this way: what did we see both of these men doing? Observing their responsibilities, we see Andre doing much, much more. Andre: directed the entire Gaines plot (their primary plot) for hours on end; chose to activate "plan B"; directed Jovan; and of course did everything after Alexis' injury: directed Harris and Victor's escape, etc. However Alexis: was a mole who kept tabs on David Palmer's assistant, and was tasked to pay money to Alan Morgan... his two other tasks were "plan B" contingencies: to kill off Kevin Carroll and murder Palmer somehow. Unless I forgot something, when you weigh those responsibilities on their merit, the case is pretty clear. But it doesn't end there. : Finally: decision-making. We didn't see them formulating the plot, so we have only the dialogue and events to work with, but there is plenty to support the idea that Andre masterminded much more than Alexis. 1) Alexis had an "I-told-you-so" moment with Andre for choosing Gaines, and Andre admits his error... but this proves that Andre had the authority to overrule Alexis before the day even began, showing Alexis was subordinate to him during the masterminding stages. Almost identically to Trepkos having his "I-told-you-so" moment with his boss, Max. 2) Alexis assures Andre that Bauer will be dead. 3) Jovan reports to Andre several times during that whole interlude. 4) Overall, Alexis's tasks were all field operations; the one decision I recall him making was to insist trying to deceive Nash. Andre's tasks included field ops, too, but he monopolized the decision-making department as this shows. 04:16, March 13, 2014 (UTC) ::Ah, that all makes sense - I suppose the show does indicate Andre was more of the mastermind. The only other thing is the fact that I think Findings at CTU paints Alexis as more of a mastermind, by showing his PDA full of the planning of the operation etc., but as this page is for masterminds from the show, I don't think that should figure in the decision making on whether to include him--Acer4666 (talk) 09:31, March 13, 2014 (UTC) :Well, actually I saw season 1 actually as two brothers who saved their father. Since Alexis never made it that far, he could never meet his brother at the prison, where I think their plan was further scheduled. Andre had to do his plans alone and so had to do his plans with his father Victor instead of Alexis. --Station7 (talk) 22:32, June 16, 2014 (UTC)